Transcript

[fol. 82r] 17 Maij 1571 Collections made by William Herle of his conference with Dr Lopes in the tower of London / out of the Originall.

I have my Lord talked with D. Lopes three or fower tymes, he being lodged in the Cunstables Tower & I in the Broadarrowe, next to him whereby we have accesse th'one to th'other, not subject to the sight of any beside, making of my parte as though I had corrupted the keper, and he sees him on th'other side, whereby I proceed with a singuler good will and opinion which may I hope bring to light any matter that is in him /

He hath declared unto me the cause of his apprehension, the manner of his examining, and what his answere was, beginning with one Thomas Heron a bankrupt, as he sayeth, & a fugitive into Ireland, who beeing his debter & relieved by him sondry times, made his mone that he was undone by one Bartholemewe Bayon (whom with some passion Lopes calles Gwayon for that he hath receaved both losses & trouble by him) the said Heron told him that Bayon had sent for him out of Ireland where he was setled well in the Princes service, and nowe beeing come hither, he sawe no great frutes nor hope of his voyage the man was in such disgrace with the world, & specially with the kings of Portingale and Spayne, desiring therefore the said Lopes in most earnest manner, for that he the said Heron meant to goe himself in the voyage, & the rather to restreyne Bayon from an ill attempt by the way, that he would undertake to intreate the Ambassadour to Spayne to geve him a lre in manner of a safe conduct, that if he met with the Kinges fleete thereby to be preserved & holpen, entring into a neerer promise (if he might be considered) that no Actes or acte of Bayons should be prejudiciall to the King of Spayne whatsoever he intended otherwise in secrett / whereuppon Lopes sayth, he was first pittifully moved to deale with th'embassadour, and in fine obteyned his lre, which good turne with the rest of his curtesyes Heron rewarded malitiously by intrapping him into this trouble, using a newe pretence thereto, that if th'embassadour would assure him by writing of the Spanish Kinges favour, & of some benefit withall, he would doe him a further service worthy so great a Prince, which the said Lopes also procuring franckly, and bringing a lre from th'embassadour to that effect to Brownes house in Southwark (where Herons wife lay sicke who was his pacyent) he was there apprehended by the Councells order with the said lre about him, which apprehension he said Heron had devised before hand, informing[fol. 82v] informing the Counsell of many untruthes, which truthe her self would make to appeare, and thus was he brought for a close prisoner to the Marshalsea on saterday at night the 5 ^th^ of this presente, and was the whole occasion of his troubles, comending in the Marshalsea D Young much & the rest of the Papists with whome he had large conference / Then the Munday following he was brought to the Court, to be examined, where your L:p & the Erle of Leicester sent for him into the gallery your L: beginning with him in this forme, you doe Master Lopes the cause you are come hither yea my Lord answered he I gesse it partly for that I see Thomas Heron wayting about this place, which you confirmed to be true, & to be the same cause indeed, demaunding why he went about to kill the Captayne Bayon, & had offered poyson to Thomas Heron to effect so wicked a purpose, whereunto he required seeing his Accuser was presente that he might be called in to object this to his face whereby your honor might be the better satisfied, & his purgacon have the more indifferency, which your Lo: said was very reasonable, & so Heron was called for in: who chardging Lopes that he had practised sundry times with him to have the said Captayne killed had used many perswasions & promises, aswell in th'embassadors name as his owne to have it throughly executed But Heron feeding him of from time to time to wynne more knowledge at his hands, found many occasions to delay the same, till at last the promise of this second lre came, But Lopes beeing impacient to have the time protracted told Heron that yf he durst not kill him his brother should doe it for him, & lastly offered him poyson bothe to speede the matter the sooner, & to cover it with greater secrecy chardging him that he came to the Ambassadour him self at his procurement When as the said Lopes was there, whereat Lopes turned to your Lo: desiring that you would not beleeve him yes said you I must beleeve him, yf I heare nothing declared to the contrary, Then Lopes began, Come hither Thomas Heron, are not you ashamed beeing the authour of this practise your self to forge so untrue a matter uppon another before my Lords here, did not you offer of your self to me to kill Bayon either here or at the seas, if the Spanish Ambassadour would, And that yf it were an Acte acceptable to the king, there were nothing that should hinder it, thus ymportunately continuing[fol. 83] continuing uppon me insomuch as in th'end you said for a pledge of your duty and service he should be dispatched here in England either on Suters hill or in Sussex way whereunto I answerd (deny it & you can) that it was a fowle enterprise & would stincke before god & man, Agayne, where you chardge me with my brother Derby to bring him in as an instrument, in your mischief, I will make good that he shall maynteyne with his sword in his shirte (as he hath alredy offered to your face) that you say untruly, And withall you knowe if I had beene disposed to have geven Bayon poyson I could have done it without you with more ease & lesse suspition But your self was importunately in hand with me for some to kill your captayne as you terme him, & that in any wise I would prepare that which were strong but did not I answere according to my first speach, adding that this cold Countrey was unapt to bring forth poysons & that both the herbes & bodies in such clymates had no force nor violent operacon, The said Lopes concluding that he was not at any time at th'embassadors when Heron was there mary th'embassador demaunded of him when he procured the first lre for Heron whether Heron would kill Bayon or no But Lopes said no, & that only he sought Herons surety if he mett with the spanish fleete, which answer sayes Lopes that Heron could not deny before the Erle of Leicester & your Lo: to be true in many partes & that such words had passed by Lopes, Heron perswading that they covered yet another intent, whereuppon your Lo: asked Lopes why he had not told the Ambassadour as charitably that it would stinck before God and the world to comitt so greevous a fact, whereunto he sayd that he knewe no ill meaning to be in th'embassador neither had he uttered to him thathe would have Bayon killed, well said your L: this is not the first leude parte that thembassadour hath used you in, which we will knowe better of, by which words he supposeth, & by some other conjecture, that the Cardinalls death wilbe layd unto him, whome he sayeth he never came neereunto nor yet once knewe, And this he alleadgeth to be the some of his examinacon & answer, returned thereuppon to the Marshalsea, the Erle of Leicester wincking uppon your Lo: to that purpose, and on Friday the xj ^th^ of this presente brought hither, Nowe he required myne ayde to frame him out a briefe & apt speache including every objection pretended with fitt answeres to the same which he would learne by note against his next hearing, hoping presently to be delivered thereby, & I comfort him that the cause is small & that it cannot in justice be long drawen, whereunto he presumes further that beeing King Phillips subject he is bound to gratify th'embassadur in what he comands & to be respected for the same, yet I finde him contrary in many thinges, & that he is borne in Lusbone more nerer indeed to an Hebrewe or Galienist then to any christian, confessing to me that this state of England cannot endure, the devision is so great among the Nobles & the subjectes, & the religion so variable at home, with so manye enemies abroade, Neither is it possible the Q: Majesties life can long continue whome God gratiously preserve, as she with a motherly tendernes & quiet preserves us which saith he made him please thembassadour lest uppon the soddaine mutation he should want favour in King Phillipes dominions retiring thither: very inquisitive hereuppon of the state of Germany, comending the Countrey the people & the magistrates mervaylously: Inquisitive withall whether they could brooke straungers or no whereby your L: in wisedome may see the better what he is, he rages at heron calling him traytor, And that he is able to proove that Bayon keepes his wife, he knowing the same himself, and that Brownes house is even a comon stewes & that the whole race is difformed with knaves & Whoores, Therefore it is one request that he will make to your honors, that such a lowsy & shameles fellowe[fol. 83r] fellowe may not be credited whose faith beeing so often broken should rather be marked out of the comon Weale, then once heard before good men, having broken with his maister Alderman Lodger, with his brother in lawe Alderman Becher with his Creditors, honest merchantes, & willingly setting his wife to open sale & abuse, what due respect then were to be used with such a one: Indeed I dare undertake for Lopes by that I have formerly groped of him that he never offred poyson to Heron for Bayon, Mary for practising with him to kill the said Bayon I am sure by all circumstancs he did, for not once but often he will say unto me, was it not wisely done of me, when he offred to kill him on Suters hill or on Sussex way, to make the same grievous & terrible in words foreseeing the doublenes he might use with me? Pero usato cautela di parole con lui, Imaginau [d] che non donesse vsar bona fide con me, ye and did I not wisely saith he) when he would have had poyson to this purpose to shewe my self scrupulous avoyding it by the excuse of the Clymate But indeed Lopes brother as he telles me should have beene the Champion & have dealt more openly with him, whereof Lopes gave his brother warning, forshewing a playne mistrust he had of his insuddlity, though the brother in no meanes would beleeve it which may proove my Lord that he which will discover thus far would not hide the rest, I asked him hereuppon what lres they were th'embassador writt for Heron Who told me the first was his safe conduct, if he were overmatched by Spaniards written in Cipher & to be presented to the secretory Sayas of Spayne, The second was ^to^ assure the said Heron of the kinges favour & preferment, if he accomplished such service as he had promised But said I did Heron knowe the Ciphers in the first lre, no answered he But what might they then conteyne, wherewith smilng he told me Peradventura dappicarlo per la gola, which I alleadged to be a hard reward but meeke ynough said he for such a one with whome having only used metaphoricall words uppon his owne provocation he might either have stayed for some greater ground or not medled at all with the matt for in his proceeding & haste (the other circumstances well considered) [ deleted: well] discovered him self openly/

I asked then what Bayon was? wherewith he stormed with his owne folly & with the ingratitude of men, for sayeth he I receaved him to my house, when as he swarmed full of lice, without frendes & money & not a shirt to his back; he hath cost me ij Cli that I never shall have & iiij Cxxli that I was entred into bond which D: Hector is nowe bound for, why said I there must be either great vertue[fol. 84r] 27 April 1571 vertue in him or great liking in you, which ought not for judgement & gravity so suddainly to be condemned,? No sayeth he I must confesse that Covetousnes overcame me & judgement made me first to see for desirous to have him reade of the sphere I perceaved by a fewe degrees his ignorance, which followed by many one not able to geve some reason of his owne profession nor willing by any meane to reason thereof: variable for the platt of his journeyes sometimes intending to Gyney for gold sometime to Capo verde for negrowes, another while to lade rise or woade for those partes which either in profitt or devises was not worth twoo poinctes / Lastly he brought him to Master William Winter his deere frend for a a full saye who quickly discovered him to be a very beaste offering that he should conferre with one William a Borrowe an excellent young man, Bayon with great arrogancy refused it saying he could not be comparable to him, Neither would he so far abuse him self to talke with any whereat Winter smacking so grosse a foole, said his Negroe knewe more then he did which caused Lopes to cast him of utterly /

But here Lopes sayth that Heron & Bayon seeing theyre matters to goe cold at the Court devised for their owne advancement howe to abuse your Lo: and the Councell (which sundry wayes he is able to proove) they pretending a great estimation made nowe of Bayon in Spayne, & many condicons offered to wyn him which if it were not prevented presently, thexellentest man that had beene here of long time should be lost & wonne from us wherein Bayon himself not able to suppresse his owne secrets, came to Lopes & told him howe Heron was gone to the Court with this invention to quicken your Lo: & the Erle of Leicester, & to add that he should be under a Cavaliero in Spayne, if theis hopes did not deteyne him here, whereuppon Lopes sayth, that your Lo: writ foorthwith a lre to Sir William Gerrard to enterteyne Bayon & to assure him of good successe here without tying himself to another Nation But saith Lopes I described to Sir William Gerrard his ignorance & folly, & so of a good minde to the rest of our English adventurers, whereby he hath fayled to abuse them, though he abused me, & nowe certen fleminges sett him foorth whose shipping is as crooked as his skill is, notwithstanding Lopes rejoysed that by this meanes Heron should not be present to maynteyne any argument against him But on Tuesday last he heard to the contrary, goes not at all with Bayon, & howe one of his brethren is delivered & another comitted to the Marshallsea, which twoo causes seeme much to tutche him /

he [fol. 84v] 27 Maij 1571 He cryes out on the Spanish Ambassadour that the adventuring for his causes thus far doth not sue for his deliverye, which he sayeth is an infinite dishonour to the King himself & a great discourage to those that doe service, But he termes the'mbassador a Babler & a foole, covetous & impatient, & the vaynest of all men, & therefore well used as he is, busying himself in trifles, & standing in the case of a [master] whiles greater affayres are overthrown, But if he had either the wise courage of the B: of Aquila who was an eagle indeed he sayd or the politicke temperance of Gusman, he was in such a season to have wrought wonders in England, as he might have prescribed what government he would, & have delivered the state to his Masters owne hands: or if he would have followed my advise and directions (sayth Lopes) I would have wonne him such a good will & authority as had beene equall to the first every way But this Ambassadour saith he beeing a Catholoman is arrogant by nature, & presuming of consanguinity with the Duke of Medina & with the King him self, his poore spirites are so ravished as noe wise negotiation can proceed from him: where true Nobility indeede is knowne by humblenes which well applied to the time & th'occasions doth vertuously atteyne to any thinge, he shewes that the Bishop of Rosse and he are great companions & have continuall repyare each to other whose conferences are so long & so misticall as it is hard to drawe them a sunder But he notes the Bp of great openes withall, And his very servantes carry matters of Counsell about with them, Therefore never able to execute weighty attempt whiles secrecy is not present, much lesse having the want of money, who alone could supply many defectes, but there be nowe a dayes in the world sayeth he such a sight of miserable ambassadours who in sparing a litle deface their prince & overthrowe their owne doings withall & of the other side their Maisters are so neere as they merite to be ill served & to feele the true correction of it, for with money (sayth he liberally disposed) I would make the Q: of England bewray her owne secrets, with covetousnes any becomes vile / & never atchieves great matter, yea said I but Princes must not geve to want, for so be they forced to take from many to please a fewe with assured hatred of thone side & small assurance of th'other, which finally weakens the state so grounded uppon spending & is joyned with manifest contempt & danger When it once wantes, so as these Princes doe lesse then any other and the mindes of men are never satisfied where they finde princes [once] bountifully enclined /

But [fol. 85r] 27 Maij 1571 But what thinck you said I of the Scottish Q: case, Mary sayth he that the greatest parte of this Realme are at her devotion & attend with great hope the time of her government which as it cannot be far of So the dethe of the Q Majestie would rayse an incredible sturre to the whole Realme /

Whereuppon I asked him what he thought of the D of Angowes coming hither, & of his mariage with the Q Majesty sonon Bais sayth he, & meere trifles withall, only devised to keepe the spanyards in suspence from executing any practise against this state, & hereby to make the better conclusion with Spayne, whose surety for the Lowe Countryes depends of the good will of their Neighbours, otherwise sayth Lopes the D: of Angeowes hath small delite with a woman stricken in yeres, & seeing nowe that the french Q if quick with childe (and so he added that the Spanish Queene was) the hope of that kingdome is taken from Angeows, & he his wife dying here, to be turned home as a King in his hose & doublett, whereof our Spanish example he sayd was to fresh /

I told him then that fieschi was at Calice coming over with Comission to end these differences betweene us, whereat he stayed with some pause, beeing of opinion that he only came as he had done to enterteyne the time, & in using large promises to understand the more for his purpose till the Spanish attemptes were ripe, assuring me that that the injuries were so many done to Spayne, that the King prepared withall his frends & forces to be revenged thereof, & that the Ambassadur departes shortly heare, so it may be done without suspition to that which is projected, shewing for a horrible matter that a ship of late apperteyning to King Phillip was taken about Dover by those whome the Q: Majesty maynteynes to skimme the seas not contented with the spoyle of all, but killed & cast over board the poore men to the last creature /

Well said I, I am in great danger here, & no man is a Prophet in his owne Countrey, neither doe I finde many worthy the dealing with abrode, But if I had true friendship used to me with comendation & assurance of some sure party on thother side, I could doe great service, & yet whiles I am here, yf any sweete [fol. 85v] sweete inducements could allure me, or terror abashe me, I could hurt some of the greatest states of all whereuppon he imbraced me, exhorting me to a manly constancy elles all vertues were but counterfett And for my going over, yf I would assure him of that & joyne with him therein he would addresse me in such sorte & to such an end (knowing my perfections & judgment for so it pleased him to terme them) as indeed should make us both happy, withall he is importunate to enter into a secret league with me to understand my secrets & to open his, & to make one participation of all our causes that I have much adoe to avoyde him, for he hath told me so many things alredy, which are of that nature as I dare not scarce expresse, And if the rest be of more regard, my duty is to doe my service, comaunded But my modesty is to knowe noe more then is meeter for me /

Lastly I asked him what newes, & he sayeth that the D: of Medina comes through france the later end of this moneth accompanied only with 60 horse at the most, But that in fraunce he shall have soldiers (of those which abound there) to ayd any neede of the Lowe Countryes but he shewes such a mistrust in using of french soldiers, as though the matter were hard to beleeve, for I alleadged he came by sea bringing great treasure & furniture with him /

Another newes he telles me that the D: of Alba goes homeward by sea when his chardge is resigned, alleadging that he were a rich prise who ever could take him /

But I was in hand to have inquired what newes the Ambassador had of Master Harry Cobham which yet for some purpose I forbeare, likewise I have dealt nothing with him tuchinge Stukeley nor of some poynctes, that I would have inquired of Swavingham, and specially what intelligence the Ambassadur hath with the English rebelles of the other side yf your L: thought so good & what this fleete of adventurers aswell out of Denmark as of other places might pretend Beseeching your L humbly to take it in good parte, This Thursday morning the 17 of Maye 1571 /